Why is my car hard too start when cold?

`77Box Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:32 pm

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Post n°1

Why is my car hard too start when cold?

`77Box Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:32 pm

Hey guys, im in need of some help.
I own a 1977 Chevy Caprice w/ a 305 sbc from what i beleve too be a 91 camaro. And the s.o.b is a pain to start when cold. It takes probably 3-5 min of cranking and pumping too start first thing in the morning. It gets down too about 10° at night where i live and the car only sits for about 12 hours at a time. It shouldn't be this hard.
The battery is new.
The starter is new.
The distributer is about 2 years old with new wires
The carb is a Edelbrock proformer 750cfm #1408 with matching intake. Manual choke, rebuilt about 8k miles ago And tuned correctly to my knowledge.
The timing is set to 8° last time i checked
And im going too replace the sparkplugs this weekend and double check the timing while im at it.

Im out of ideas on what could be causing it and hoping you can share some ideas on what i could do or check..

79treemaster Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:37 am

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Post n°2

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

79treemaster Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:37 am

Does the motor even try to fire? If not there might not be any fuel getting in the engine. If you use starting fluid and it runs and then quits I think there is no fuel reaching the carb or it could be a bad accelerator pump in the carb. 750 is very large for a 305. I'm looking at putting a 600 cfm vacuum or Double Pumper Holley on mine and putting the 750 cfm Q-Jet away for a bigger engine.

**Sweet Seventy9** Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:28 am

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Post n°3

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Sweet Seventy9 Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:28 am

yeah, a 750 is HUGE for a 305. I ran a 1405(?) 500cfm edelbrock carb on my last 305 and it was plenty big enough.

I have to ask..... Are you setting the choke before trying to start it? From what you're describing, that sounds like it may be the problem. I mean no disrespect but I haven't met too many people under 40yo that know how to properly start a carburated engine, especially in the cold.

If you have an electric choke, turn on your ignition and press and hold the gas pedal to the floor for a second or two. Release the gas pedal and the choke SHOULD be set. Now start the car. Do this even in warm weather. When it's real cold, below freezing, you still might have to pump the pedal once or twice while you're cranking it over before it starts. Be aware though, with that 750cfm carb and it's BIG accelerator pump discharge orifices, if you pump it too many times while starting, you WILL flood the engine.

Manual choke? Just pull the cable's knob out to set it. As the engine warms up, a little at a time push the knob back in to open the choke up. When the engine reaches proper operating temp, the choke should be fully opened.

I hope this helps

`77Box Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:45 pm

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Post n°4

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

`77Box Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:45 pm

79treemaster wrote:Does the motor even try to fire? If not there might not be any fuel getting in the engine. If you use starting fluid and it runs and then quits I think there is no fuel reaching the carb or it could be a bad accelerator pump in the carb. 750 is very large for a 305. I'm looking at putting a 600 cfm vacuum or Double Pumper Holley on mine and putting the 750 cfm Q-Jet away for a bigger engine.

Yea i know a 750 is WAY to big lol im looking into getting a smaller one.
It tries to fire but just cant keep revs if that makes sense.. When i use starter fluid it will run for a second and then die..
I have looked at accel pump and when i rebuilt it i made sure too put a new plunger and set it the best i could.
On the arm that comes out of it there are 3 holes for settings and i have it set on the very buttom one and the carb is tuned as lean as it will go. The no fuel would make sense.. any ideas on how too check or fix??

`77Box Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:51 pm

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Post n°5

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

`77Box Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:51 pm

Sweet Seventy9 wrote:yeah, a 750 is HUGE for a 305. I ran a 1405(?) 500cfm edelbrock carb on my last 305 and it was plenty big enough.

I have to ask..... Are you setting the choke before trying to start it? From what you're describing, that sounds like it may be the problem. I mean no disrespect but I haven't met too many people under 40yo that know how to properly start a carburated engine, especially in the cold.

If you have an electric choke, turn on your ignition and press and hold the gas pedal to the floor for a second or two. Release the gas pedal and the choke SHOULD be set. Now start the car. Do this even in warm weather. When it's real cold, below freezing, you still might have to pump the pedal once or twice while you're cranking it over before it starts. Be aware though, with that 750cfm carb and it's BIG accelerator pump discharge orifices, if you pump it too many times while starting, you WILL flood the engine.

Manual choke? Just pull the cable's knob out to set it. As the engine warms up, a little at a time push the knob back in to open the choke up. When the engine reaches proper operating temp, the choke should be fully opened.

I hope this helps

I take no offence lol i know what you mean. Noone my age know half of what i talk about when itell them about my car.
I do set the choke and it is manual.
When i get in i turn the key too start (without cranking) pull the choke lever while i press the gas too the floor and let up on the gas and then try to start. And it is adjusted correctly. Nothing. It cranks and sounds like it wants to fire, kind of sputters while it cranks but just wont catch... even with starter fluid..

**Sweet Seventy9** Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:58 pm

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Post n°6

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Sweet Seventy9 Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:58 pm

Well, you're start-up procedure is correct, so it should start.
Have you tried pumping the pedal a couple times instead of just once before starting?

Are you SURE your choke is adjusted properly? Most mechanics today are clueless as to how to adjust one and don't know it's not supposed to close 100% of the way. There needs to be a small gap to allow air to pass it. Is there a small gap present? Try this: pull the choke knob to where you usually do, then push it back in a small bit and try to start it.

Is the idle speed set correctly? If not, the "butterfly" valve will be closed too far and prevent the engine from starting and running. Try giving it about 1/4 pedal while starting it.

Are you positive the new distributor was installed on the correct teeth on the cam shaft? Even being off by 1 tooth will cause trouble.

Have you checked your fuel pressure?

Are there any vacuum leaks?

Do you smell gas at the carb when the air cleaner is removed and the engine is being turned over?

Try banging on the carb with the plastic handle of a screw driver, the float or the inlet needle valve might be stuck.

Double check your spark plug wires for the proper firing order, and that you have the #1 wire on the correct dist cap post. The correct firing sequence is: 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.

Do you have access to a different, known to work properly, carb? Preferably smaller? Swap it out and see what happens.

Umm, that's all I can think of atm.

*edit
When did the issue show up? Immediately after the intake and carb swap or some other time?

`77Box Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:24 pm

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Post n°7

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

`77Box Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:24 pm

There is a little gap on the choke, about 1/4 inch maybe a little less.

I have the idle at 800 rpm in park, 600 in Drive.

Havent checked fuel pressure, dont really know how. I replaced the fuel pump about 4 months ago.

I dont think there are any vacuume leaks, i did move the distributer vacuume line too the left side today, i think thats the full time and that seemed to help a little.

Im not sure about the distributer teeth, is there a easy way too check?? When i replaced it i put it back in the same location but it was kind of a b**** too get back in.

I dont smell gas and i tried looking down the carb too see if i could see gas while i pumped the throttle and i couldnt see anything... makes me wonder.. i will try tapping on it with a screw driver in the morning

Firing order is correct and wires are correct.

I dont remember when it started, its so intermitten.

And unfortunitly i dont have access to another carb.

Once it starts it runs great, no misses that i can tell and plenty of power up too 5000rpm with no funny sounds or shakes..

Thank you for the help i really appritiate it.

**Sweet Seventy9** Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:50 pm

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Post n°8

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Sweet Seventy9 Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:50 pm

So it's intermittent. Hmmm.
Only when it's cold outside or also in warm temps?

`77Box Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:31 pm

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Post n°9

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

`77Box Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:31 pm

Yeah i would say everytime when its cold out, below 45°. It can be kind of difficult when its warmer out but not nearly as bad, just takes two or three tries.

`77Box Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:32 pm

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Post n°10

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

`77Box Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:32 pm

The temps here very so much its hard too get a read on it..

**GM B-Body Forum** Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:47 pm

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Post n°11

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

GM B-Body Forum Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:47 pm

Definitely sounds carb or fuel related, and it dont sound like an ignition problem, usually if the ICM is going bad it will cut off once it gets hot. Are you running a stock HEI? What plugs and gap are you running? And yes ofcourse you know a 750 is way to big for a 305, but that wouldnt cause it not to start, it will just kill the low end torque. Take a spark plug out and "read" it, those little things tell stories, and can tell you whats going on in there.

**Sweet Seventy9** Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:17 am

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Post n°12

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Sweet Seventy9 Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:17 am

I'm trying to explore all avenues, but everything seems to be pointing to the carb being the problem. The accelerator pump or choke.
I'm not all that familiar with Edelbrock carbs so I won't be much of a help for more technical questions about them.
I wish I had an answer about if you should see fuel squirted into the venturi when you pump the pedal. I'm thinking you should though.
On a Holley carb you can clearly see both "Squirters" aka Accelerator Pump Discharge Nozzles, and see them squirt the fuel into the air stream.
I'm pretty sure you can see the spray on a Rochester carb too. Aren't the Edelbrock ones based on a Rochester?

HeavyChevy77 Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:27 am

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Post n°13

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

HeavyChevy77 Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:27 am

What about the EFE Valve on my 77' caprice with 350 SBC
The EFE makes sense to me if the carb is good but as others said too big for that 305 , also u say your choke works. Maybe you could change it to hot air choke or electric ($50 to convert a qjet)
EFE is in the passenger side of my motor with a vacuum line that connects to the ported vacuum switch on the front of intake/ on water outlet neck
One ported switch is for EFE and other for EGR.
The EFE valve is activated by vacuum that closes a valve in the passenger exhaust so the engine and pull in hot air to warm it up faster.
The crossover pipe (y pipe) crosses from the driver side to the passenger side joing up after the EFE valve.

`77Box Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:17 pm

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Post n°14

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

`77Box Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:17 pm

GM B-Body Forum wrote:Definitely sounds carb or fuel related, and it dont sound like an ignition problem, usually if the ICM is going bad it will cut off once it gets hot. Are you running a stock HEI? What plugs and gap are you running? And yes ofcourse you know a 750 is way to big for a 305, but that wouldnt cause it not to start, it will just kill the low end torque. Take a spark plug out and "read" it, those little things tell stories, and can tell you whats going on in there.

It is a MSD HEI distributer.
Boshe brand wires.
I changed the plugs yesterday and put in Autolite w/ .035 gap.
When i changed them the old ones looked good, there was a little oil on a couple of them that was pretty thick in consistancy. After i changed them i put a little starter fluid in and it fired right up so i went and got my oil changed too 5w 30. Im gonna go try and start it in a min so we'll see

Is that carb whats killings my low end??? I always wondered..

`77Box Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:20 pm

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Post n°15

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

`77Box Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:20 pm

Sweet Seventy9 wrote:I'm trying to explore all avenues, but everything seems to be pointing to the carb being the problem. The accelerator pump or choke.
I'm not all that familiar with Edelbrock carbs so I won't be much of a help for more technical questions about them.
I wish I had an answer about if you should see fuel squirted into the venturi when you pump the pedal. I'm thinking you should though.
On a Holley carb you can clearly see both "Squirters" aka Accelerator Pump Discharge Nozzles, and see them squirt the fuel into the air stream.
I'm pretty sure you can see the spray on a Rochester carb too. Aren't the Edelbrock ones based on a Rochester?

Thank you, im starting too get that feeling too. I have been able too gas come out of those squiter before ao im thinking somethinh is draining out the reserves and its taking a while too get fuel to the motor

`77Box Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:47 pm

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Post n°16

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

`77Box Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:47 pm

HeavyChevy77 wrote:What about the EFE Valve on my 77' caprice with 350 SBC
The EFE makes sense to me if the carb is good but as others said too big for that 305 , also u say your choke works. Maybe you could change it to hot air choke or electric ($50 to convert a qjet)
EFE is in the passenger side of my motor with a vacuum line that connects to the ported vacuum switch on the front of intake/ on water outlet neck
One ported switch is for EFE and other for EGR.
The EFE valve is activated by vacuum that closes a valve in the passenger exhaust so the engine and pull in hot air to warm it up faster.
The crossover pipe (y pipe) crosses from the driver side to the passenger side joing up after the EFE valve.

I took picture of what your talking about but it wont let me load it. There is no hose connecting from the EFE canaster on the top passanger side of the motor to anything, is that suppose too connect too where the thermostat and coolent comes out of the front of the intake manafold??
Ill buy a hose today and connect the two..

**Sweet Seventy9** Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:38 pm

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Post n°17

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Sweet Seventy9 Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:38 pm

`77Box wrote: <snip>Is that carb whats killings my low end??? I always wondered..

LOL, heck yeah! Big exhausts do it too. Everything has to be matched together to work properly.

If you've seen fuel spray in the venturi in the past but don't anymore, the accelerator pump is malfunctioning.
In cold weather the engine needs a much richer fuel/air mix at initial start up. By squirting some extra fuel when you pump the pedal, (it actually puddles on the bottom of the intake plenum) the accelerator pump makes up for the extra needed fuel. If it's malfunctioning, the engine receives a lean mix (for starting) and is more difficult to start.
It has to do with the speed of the burn. Rich mixtures ignite easier and burn faster than lean ones. I could go on for another 2 hours about the hows and whys, but it all boils down to your carb being the culprit, which is very common.

Just out of curiosity, are you forced to use gas with ethanol mixed in like here in the US? Some places here it's as much as 85% ethanol.
Ethanol is corrosive and bad for carbs that aren't converted for it's use.

For everybody in the ethanol blended fuel areas who's lawn mower runs like crap, yup, the ethanol is destroying it. I had to buy a new one this summer because of it. LOL, there was a warning tag right on it saying not to use any ethanol at all, and if you did it will void the warranty.

**GM B-Body Forum** Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:20 pm

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Post n°18

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

GM B-Body Forum Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:20 pm

I wouldnt worry about the EFE system, its sole job is to get the engine up to operating temps as soon as possible, its default position is open so the exhaust wont be constricted, alot of folks just weld it open if theyre still using the stock exh manifolds. Im assuming since youve got an eddy carb on it your not using the original air cleaner assembly? Again the stock air cleaner assembly with the pre heater duct hose is just to get the engine up to temp asap, but none of that will not cause your car to not start. Your spark plug gap is ok, stock is .45 so .35-.45 is ok on an hei. Any oil in the plugs will cause them to foul and hard starting. Im a holley fan and love them, i also love quadrajets, but if you can id get a holley vac secondaries at a max of 600cfm and even that is on the high side. If you want good low end torque id put a quadrajet on there, the small main butterflies help alot with that. Or just put a smaller edelbrock on there. Its up to you. But what i have discovered is that, the holley is great for upper end power at the sacrifice of some bottom end, and the quadrajet was the exact opposite. I have no experience in edelbrock carbs but was told they were based off the quadrajet.

`77Box Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:51 pm

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Post n°19

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

`77Box Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:51 pm

I went out this morning and had too use a little starter fluid too get it too fire but only took about 5 cranks and didnt even let it run for more then 1 min.

After that i fixed the EFE vacuum problem and that def heats up the motor faster which is nice cuz in turn my heater works faster.
Once i connected those hoses the thing fired right up no struggle. Maybe half a crank which usually only happens when its fully warmed up and off for maybe 5 min.Might be because i already started it about 2 hours earlier but it definitly made a difference. No doubt. I would assume because of the vacuum leak that it had created.

I need too wait for it too cool back off too try cold starting it again.

But a new carb is definitly in order

**Sweet Seventy9** Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:34 pm

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Post n°20

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Sweet Seventy9 Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:34 pm

It might be a good idea to check for more vacuum leaks. You were under the assumption there weren't any, but there was at least one.
There might be more you're unaware of.
I use a can of WD40 and spray it anywhere there can be a leak. If the engine briefly speeds up, there's a leak in the area that was just tested. Any flameable spray works.

**GM B-Body Forum** Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:37 pm

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Post n°21

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

GM B-Body Forum Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:37 pm

Make sure the EFE is hooked up correctly to the vacuum switch you dont want it to stay closed all the time, if i remember correctly its the yellow switch on the water outlet, that was the case on my 350, im assuming the 305s had the same setup. I know theres a yellow one, blue one, and a purple one, all rated at different temps.

But yes def check all the vac lines, theres alot on the stock engines.

And if you want you can advance the ignition timing too, id set it at 12 to 14 degrees initial, the low compression motors love advance.

HeavyChevy77 Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:00 pm

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Post n°22

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

HeavyChevy77 Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:00 pm

`77Box wrote:I went out this morning and had too use a little starter fluid too get it too fire but only took about 5 cranks and didnt even let it run for more then 1 min.

After that i fixed the EFE vacuum problem and that def heats up the motor faster which is nice cuz in turn my heater works faster.
Once i connected those hoses the thing fired right up no struggle. Maybe half a crank which usually only happens when its fully warmed up and off for maybe 5 min.Might be because i already started it about 2 hours earlier but it definitly made a difference. No doubt. I would assume because of the vacuum leak that it had created.

I need too wait for it too cool back off too try cold starting it again.

But a new carb is definitly in order

Awesome man glad it made a difference I have the manual with the engine vacuum lines if the moderator can post up how to post pics cause I had a hard time before I'll post vacuum line diagram
Let me kno if high altitude or what ever the sticker under the hood on the driver inner wheel well says

**Sweet Seventy9** Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:13 pm

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Post n°23

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Sweet Seventy9 Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:13 pm

HeavyChevy77 wrote:Awesome man glad it made a difference I have the manual with the engine vacuum lines if the moderator can post up how to post pics cause I had a hard time before I'll post vacuum line diagram
Let me kno if high altitude or what ever the sticker under the hood on the driver inner wheel well says

https://www.gmbbodyforum.com/t315-how-to-upload-pics

HeavyChevy77 Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:29 pm

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Post n°24

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

HeavyChevy77 Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:29 pm

https://i.servimg.com/u/f59/18/98/28/33/image10.jpg
This was the only way I could post it ..dumb I pad won't cooporate

The egr ported vacuum switch (2 vacuum ports that goes in the water outlet)
Top port goes to egr and bottom goes to the Front side Bottom Left corner Side of the carb.
The EFE is the vacuum port on the front of the manifold
The top vacuum port goes to a check valve (has 2 colored halfs the shortest half faces the vacuum port
The line connects just above to the right of the egr line you connected earlier
If you don't have air pump on the EFE vacuum pluming u just go from port to the check valve (2 colored halfs) the to carb
Also change all your vacuum lines .. I remember I did this when I got mine 3 years ago and now starts on the flick of a switch
As on the color on the ported vacuum switch the books list purple yellow etc
But all hoses are black and the ports are either green or white specific one for the egr and EFE bout $20 a pop so be gentle tugging on those hoses

HeavyChevy77 Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:50 pm

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Post n°25

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

HeavyChevy77 Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:50 pm

https://i.servimg.com/u/f59/18/98/28/33/image13.jpg

My bad forgot it was a 305 I have a 350 so that's why I sent that

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Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Why is my car hard too start when cold?

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Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

Re: Why is my car hard too start when cold?

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